MATTHEW LIU：Origin Protocol 起源協議的創始人之一。
YouTube 的早期產品經理，矽谷創業多年的連續創業者，和聯合創始人 Josh Fraser 在 Origin 之前就共同成功地建立了多家公司，產生年過百萬美金的收入。
Higgs百佬薈是Higgs Capital推出的區塊鏈百人超級訪談節目，節目定向邀請100位圈內知名研究專家、專案發起人，針對行業發展趨勢、標準規則、投資趨勢、應用趨勢等，展開解讀和研究。
以下是Higgs Capital 記者採訪內容：
Higgs百佬薈：可以請您先簡單介紹一下Origin Protocol嗎？我想很多人都對這個平臺感興趣。
MATTHEW LIU：Origin Protocol 是一個建立在區塊鏈上的中間協議層技術平臺。我們開發的功能可以為共享的經濟市場的應用服務，也可以用於市場上大部分去中心化應用。我們致力於構建一個大規模的商務網路，我們的願景是促進分散式網路上開放、免費服務的交換。Origin Protocol可以看作是為分散式共享經濟版本的優步、滴滴打車或愛彼迎 (Airbnb)提供技術和網路相應的基礎。
對比中心化平臺，分散式交易平臺會帶來許多好處，主要體現在兩大層面，一是財務，二是平臺入口。首先，沒有中間商以後，向使用者收取的佣金也隨之取消，收益也將全部返給買家和賣家；其次，透過token經濟模型的設計讓所有對平臺發展做出貢獻的參與者都獲得利益。我們知道，傳統風險投資領域，公司創始人、團隊能在IPO併購中賺一大筆錢，但真正的平臺參與者卻沒有。所以，我們希望透過Origin Protocol重新分配買賣方、市場運營人員、平臺方等多方的財務價值，構建一個真正開放公平、可以進行點對點交易的平臺。
當前，世界上有兩百多萬人口沒有銀行戶口、信用卡，他們無法使用支付寶、微信支付、蘋果支付，創業對他們來說非常困難，我們希望也可以為這些創業團隊和使用者提供更多機會。
Higgs百佬薈：那麼Origin Protocol的價值和意義是什麼？
MATTHEW LIU：
1、減免費用；
2、重新分配分散式網路的財務價值；
3、構建開放公平的商業環境；
4、為沒有銀行賬戶的人提供數字商品和服務。
5、移除中間商，這也是我們最核心的特點。
技術層面上，我們透過開發可以被廣泛整合的去中心化的功能為Dapps甚至傳統(中心化)網際網路應用提供價值，這樣所有Dapps和傳統應用可以將他們的全部精力集中在產品設計和服務上。我們的技術是開源的，這些技術可以被視為新的標準並廣泛推廣使用，比如說, 目前我們也在推廣ERC 725的驗證機制和其它技術創新，與此同時，我們還開發了即時短訊去中心化應用。
Higgs百佬薈：共享出行領域確實需要改進，最近滴滴遇到了嚴重的問題，由於平臺沒有對司機身份進行嚴格監管，接二連三犯罪案的發生讓人們嚴重質疑滴滴打車的安全性。那如果滴滴打車採用這項新技術可以解決哪些問題？
MATTHEW LIU：人們對於中心化平臺過於信任，滴滴打車沒有積極調查駕駛員基礎資訊，並營造了一種虛假的安全感，當然，去中心化的世界中也會存在身份和聲譽的問題，需要一些時間來構建強大而全面的系統。
1.從最開始說起，如果使用者和司機不存在錯誤的安全意識以及安全感，則意味著買賣雙方可以更好、更謹慎的審查交易對方；
2.從長遠來看，如果我們啟用自我主權身份，允許使用者將他們從一個或多個應用程式裡獲得的身份和聲譽轉移到另一個應用程式，將有利於形成更全面的聲譽系統。每個中心化的平臺都有自己獨立的使用者交易記錄和評論記錄，但在具有自我主權身份的去中心化平臺中，使用者可以在多個服務平臺建立自己的聲譽，但每個平臺用於的資訊都一樣，這樣任何一方都很值得信賴。
Higgs百佬薈：你怎麼看token，token是這個生態的必需品麼？為什麼？
MATTHEW LIU：這個問題需具體情況，具體分析。
首先，代幣的一項重大創新是為互不信任的雙方創造了信任的激勵機制，最好的例子仍然是BTC/" target="_blank"">比特幣和以太坊挖礦，激勵措施推動了人們的行為方式，對於分散式應用而言，這一點非常重要，當然前提是要構建正確的激勵結構和代幣用途，所以要做好它非常具有挑戰性。
其次，目前市場上有很多代幣專案實際上都是空氣幣，不值得存在。
Higgs百佬薈：目前的區塊鏈共享領域，您覺得存在哪些機遇和挑戰？
MATTHEW LIU：共享經濟有著巨大的機會，我們看到，全世界越來越多的人加入到了共享經濟當中，人們有更多靈活流動的工作，更多的人成為了供應商。市場正在快速增長，並將繼續發展下去，與過去相比，消費者的租賃和分享不斷增加。
當然，也有很多挑戰，中心化的平臺大都是區域性的壟斷者，他們擁有大量使用者資料，並且有大量的市場資金摧毀競爭對手，一旦他們這樣做並且成功了，供應商將會得到更糟糕的對待。比如，優步已經多次提高平臺的交易手續費；滴滴打車的客戶服務整體下降，OFO小黃車由於資金鍊斷掉而車輛更新度和服務下降……這些公司發展得太快並且過於主導市場，使用者體驗不再是核心，定價也不合理。
還有一點是這種高度中心化的企業容易受到審查，許多共享經濟服務在其他國家被禁止。去中心化的市場的政策風險更小, 更能保證自由和公開的交易。
Higgs百佬薈：熊市對你們有沒有影響，請問您如何應對？
MATTHEW LIU：我們其實並沒有專注的去看市場每天的變化情況。但是，熊市對我們也是有影響的，這種影響有利有弊。
首先，當大家對區塊鏈公司和產品更加悲觀時，融資環境會變得更加艱難，很多空氣專案也將會消失，噪音減少。其次，因為賺快錢的投機機會的消失，意味著只要我們不斷的構建我們的技術並提供產品，像我們這樣的長期重點專案將能進一步脫穎而出。
網際網路第一波最偉大的公司就是在熊市環境中脫穎而出的，他們不僅提供了很多，更創造了新的牛市，亞馬遜谷歌是很好的例子，Facebook在2018年金融危機後也經歷了驚人的增長，這些公司在熊市中蓬勃發展，最終成為具有代表性的公司。無論熊牛市都要專注於建設而不是價格。
雖然不知道具體什麼時間，但我們知道牛市終會迴歸。所以，我們要專注於盡快建設底層設施，做好充足的準備，以實現真正的應用。
Higgs百佬薈：您覺得目前市場上的眾多公鏈專案應該注重什麼？
MATTHEW LIU：我認為在layer 1是有創新很重要，因為它會給競爭帶來更多進步，雖然很多人只想建立自己的區塊鏈而不併不關注應用，但最終，在這些公共區塊鏈上建立開發是必要的。
Higgs百佬薈：請您簡單描述下您對區塊鏈行業接下來的發展趨勢的看法。
MATTHEW LIU：我認為區塊鏈的長期前景是非常樂觀的，就像網際網路Web 1.0，Web 2.0的發展一樣，它建立了很多我們意想不到的產品和服務，並因此改變了我們的生活。區塊鏈的一些最佳應用落地目前還沒有出現，我覺得至少需要10年的時間去創新、發展，因為大部分的價值創造都需要時間。
區塊鏈的最佳增長是複合增長，時間越久影響越遠，包括財務回報。目前大多數的區塊鏈設計面臨巨大的技術挑戰，可伸縮性是條件之一，使用者體驗也急需改善。當前Dapps的使用者體驗是不可接受的，在修復之前，主流使用者不會使用基於區塊鏈構建的Dapps。在Origin Protocol，我們也正在努力創新一些使用者體驗，因為我們覺得這是非常必要的。
區塊鏈正在成為一個全球現象，我非常幸運能夠投身於這個行業，我相信未來應該會有更多令人興奮的機會，也會有更多的合作、權力、組織價值下放給個人等等。區塊鏈將成為一項世界技術，它提供的許多好處將是世界的好處。
Higgs百佬薈：您認為美國的區塊鏈專案與中國的區塊鏈有什麼區別？
MATTHEW LIU：中國和美國都是創業創新的領導者。
1）中國有巨大的市場、成熟的風險投資生態系統、驚人的科技公司，與矽谷和舊金山非常相似。美國區塊鏈專案往往有更多的開源貢獻，中國區塊鏈專案似乎並不是這種發展文化，更多是私人團隊。
2）中國的許多公司在嘗試反向ICO，擁有大量使用者群的公司將進行標記化，美國許多成熟的科技公司沒有試圖做反向ICO，他們更多的是致力於標記化的初創公司。
3) 美國和中國的投資者情況也不同。例如，美國風險資本家主要關注基礎設施，並且時間跨度更長。中國和亞洲其他國家雖然仍然專注於第1層，但更容易接受應用層。
4) 相同的一點是，中國和美國的監管環境都很嚴峻。
英文版
Higgs百佬薈：First of all, could you give a brief introduction of OriginProtocol? I guess many people are very curious about it.
MATTHEW LIU：Origin protocal is a platform for merging many decentralised marketplaces all over world. We are initially focuing on the sharing economy, and we believe there's future where should be a decentrazlied version of DIDI or Uber, or Airbnb.
For example, we believe there're two large category of benefits. The first one is financial incentive, the second one is access and services. So let's talk about the financial incentive first.
By removing the middleman, we also able to remove fees that middleman charge. We want to give the values back to buyers and sellers. Secondly. we want to use crypto economy incentives to allow all stakeholders in the platform to benefit from it. In the tradional world, venture capital、foudner and its empolyee benefit, but the people actually got into the network do not. In this world, today we want to redistribute the values back to the buyers and sellers, its partner, as well as the marketplaces operators.
We want to open up opportunities for many of the less fortunate people. There're 2 millions people that currently are unbanked. They don't have credit cards, saving accounts and checking accounts. They don't have wechatpay, alipay and applepay. So when they do business is very very difficult. However, right now there're many these 2 million people have cheap android phone and with cryptocurrency they can actually transact one another without commissions from the banks or the government. Origin we believe can enable many centralized marketplaces all over the world again. So In some of the less fortunate areas, we hope to see for the first time these buyers and sellers can transact one another online.
Higgs百佬薈：What’s the key value of origin protocol?
MATTHEWLIU：
1. Remove fees;
2. Redistribute values of the network to users;
3. Open and fair commerce;
4. Serving the unbanked to access digital goods and services；
5. Essentially-removing the intermediary.
In terms of technology, we add value by building coredecentralization functionalities that all dapps and even centralize dapp lications can integrate, So dapps and apps can focus on building theirproducts and services. Our technology is open source and much of what weare building can serve as New open standards that can be widelyadopted. We have built our own decentralized messaging service. Arepushing forward on an identity standard called ERC 725, And several other technical innovations.
Higgs百佬薈：What kindofsharing economy project do you think are most suitable forblockchain? Could yougive an example?
MATTHEW LIU：Most marketplaces that are designedto be peer to peer can do well on the blockchain. These are individual buyersand sellers, Not large corporations selling goods and services to individualbuyers. We think many categories can be successful, Home sharing, contractor services,home services, outsourcing, car sharing, rideshareinf, But also just productmarketplaces as well . In terms of priority order,It is better to focus on categories with high transaction value that do notneed real time transactions. Because blockchains are not highly scalable yet, Sobuilding adecentralized DiDi is much harder than a decentralized Airbnb.
Higgs百佬薈：Car sharingindeed needs improvement actually, recently Didi's running into serious problem,especially for its safety. The driver can be criminal since the platform didn’tset up strict rule on it. What problems can be solved if Didi adopts this new technology?
MATTHEW LIU：Int his case people put too muchtrust in the centralized platform
But Didi did not actively moderate its driver base, Thereis a false sense of safety，
In a decentralized world there are still identity and reputationissues of course. It will take some time to build robust and comprehensive systemshere.
1. At the very least to start, not havinga false sense of security and safety means that buyers and sellers will bettervet the counterparty. They will use more caution.
2. In the long term, if we enable selfsovereign identity, we allow users to transfer the identities and reputationsthey have earned over time (across many apps)from one app to another, Thisshould lead to a more comprehensive reputation system. Versus right noweach centralized business is building their own record of a user stransactionhistory and reviews, In the decentralized world with self sovereignidentity a user can build their reputation across many services. Then they canbe more trustworthy to the other side as well.
Higgs百佬薈：Do youthink Token is a necessity of the blockchain ecosystem? And why?
MATTHEW LIU：I think it depends on a caseto case basis
The big innovation of tokens is it creates incentives forparties that don’t trust each other to cooperate, The best example isstill bitcoin and ethereum mining, Incentives drive the way peopleact, And are hugely important to align decentralized parties, Of courseconstructing the right incentive structure, As well as token utility
And usability, Are all very challenging to get right.
There are many broken token systems, And many token based projectsthat don’t deserve to exist, So it’s a really case by case basis.
Higgs百佬薈：What’s the opportunityand challenge of the sharing economy?
MATTHEW LIU：There are huge opportunitieswith the sharing economy, We’ve seen all over the world that more and more peopleare participating in the sharing economy, People have more fluid jobs, Somany more end up as suppliers. The market is growing fast and it will continue.
Also consumers are renting and sharing much more than they arein the past, It’s just a cheaper and more convenient alternative to owning, Nowthere are many challenges, The centralized players are all regionalmonopolies, This allows them to own user data and spend a ton of venture capitalmoney to destroy the competition, Once they do they then treat suppliers morepoorly. For example uber has increased its transaction rates many times；Didi’scustomer service has fallen，Ofo users are negatively ratingthem. The companies have grown too quickly and become too dominant but now theuser experiences are worse, And the pricing is unfair.
Als othey are prone to censorship. Many sharing economy usecases are banned in other countries.
With decentralized marketplaces it is much harder to prevent peoplefrom buying and selling with each other freely.
Higgs百佬薈：As we know,crypto currency market in the midst of a bear market, so how does the bearmarket influence Origin protocol project? How do you deal with those problems?
MATTHEW LIU：To be honest we are not focusedvery much on the day to day market conditions. There are pros and cons to abear market of course, On the one hand itmeans conditions are tougher whenthe general public is more pessimistic about blockchain companies and products. Onthe other hand, This also means many scam my projects will disappear, Therewill be less noise. Because the quick opportunities to make money are gone, Thismeans that long term focused projects like ours, Will be able to stand outmore, As long as we keep delivering on our product and building out ourtech.
The greatest companies in the first wave of the Internet went throughyears of growth under bear market conditions, Before delivering so muchvalue that they created the new bull market, Amazon google are great examples, Facebookalso went through amazing growth after the financealcris is in 2018. We lookto these examples of startups that became generationally impactful companiesthat thrived in a bear market, Easier to attract talent.
Less competition, Ability to focus on building rather than obsessingabout prices.
We believe the bull market will come back, Not sure when. But in the meantime, We are focused onbuilding as quickly as possible to get real adoption, Then we will beexcellently positioned for the bull market.
Higgs百佬薈：Could youpleaseshare something about the current development stage of originprotocol?Forexample, product strategy, roadmap and vision.
MATTHEW LIU：We are going to release our v1 before the year is out, Ontoethereum mainnet, This will be our mainnetbeta, We will then continue to test and improve the platform, We willthen have v2 and v3 features in the coming months.
We expect our first partner applications to be built early 2019, Our long term vision is to enable many different use cases inmany countries allover the world, We are very excited about the asian market China, korea, Singapore etc. Since there is much more adoption here, For apreview of what’s to come, You can check out our testnet demo.
Demo.originprotocol.com
Higgs百佬薈：Asamatterof fact, there’re a number of public blockchain projects on the market now.What’s your opinion on that?
MATTHEW LIU：I think that it’s important that there is in novation in layer 1,Competition will breed advance ments. So that is good, In general though I do think too many people want to build their own blockchain without focusing on adoption Ultimately developers building ontop of these public blockchains is necessary To have real impact.
We chose to build on ethereum because it is actually out there and working. And the developer community is very strong. Many other public blockchains have not launched, Or have very little usage, Over time ones with no adoption will probably go away, And there will be a few dominantones, And there will probably be interoperability between the best chains. Obviously one of the big issues with many public chains isscal ability, So that needs to be solved, And the ones that are more scalable May not be secure or decent ralized, Vitalik calls if the blockchain trilemma. It is very very difficult to have decent ralization, security, and scalability all simultaneously.
Higgs百佬薈：Thankyou.We come to the last question. Could you please share your view onthe trendofthe blockchain industry?
MATTHEW LIU：I am very optimistic and excited about the long term prospects of blockchain, Just as the first wave of the internet evolved Web1.0,Then Web 2.0.There are so many unexpected unpredictable products and services that were created, That changed people’s lives for the better. I think some of the best use cases for blockchain have not been even imagined yet, AndI think there will be at least 10 years of innovation and growth, Much ofthat value creation will take time though.
The best growth is compounded growth, And the later years will have the most impact, As well as financial returns, And most usage. There are many many short term challenges, And the technology challenges are very difficult, Scalability being one of the first prerequisites. After that Therewill be a need to improve user experiences too . Right now the user experience of DApps is unacceptable, No main stream users will use DApps built on top of blockchain until these are fixed. At Origin we are trying to pioneer some of these user experience in novations, Because we feellike that is extremely necessary.
I think this current bear market is painful, But it is a necessary period, To allow the technology to catch up. All in all I feel very blessedto be working in the industry
There are so many exciting opportunities in the future. I also see blockchain Continuing to be a global phenomenon .There will be much more collaboration And decent ralization or organizations, Value PowerEtc. Blockchain will be a world technology , And many of the benefitsit promises to deliver will be world benefits That’s it.
Higgs百佬薈：What’s the difference between blockchain projects in China and the US?
MATTHEW LIU：China and the US are boththe leaders in startup innovation.
1. China has a huge market, Matureeco system of VCs, Amazing tech companies, Same with Silicon Valley and SF, Lots of great tech. Differences, There are multiple, I do not ice that US blockchain projects tend to have more open source contributions. Chinese blockchain projects are not as used to thisdevelopment culture, More seem to be private teams.
2. Also many companies in China are attempting reverse ICOs. Companies with large established user bases going to wards token ization, We don’t see many mature tech companies in the US trying to do reverse ICOs. It’s mostly startups that are working on token ization.
3. The investor profile for US and China also seem to be different, US venture capitalists for example are mostly focused on in frast ructure and have longer time horizon.
4. China and rest of Asia, while still heavily focused on layer 1, is more receptive to the application layer，Regulatory environment in both China and US is tough.
採訪記者： Eva
整理：Zyra
